Losing Weight – Part 1 - Caleb Jones

In my seemingly never-ending journey to lose weight, I’ve finally found a few systems that work, at least for me. As I’ve talked about before, my weight is the only part of my life that is not a nine or a ten on the one-to-ten scale. My health is very good. I just got my comprehensive blood panels back a few weeks ago and my levels in all the 15 or so key areas are not only good, but optimal (with one or two minor exceptions). I’m one of the healthiest men I know at any age.

But, alas, health and body fat are two different things, and my body fat is still too high for maximum happiness. I’ve written several articles here before about methods I’ve tried to lose weight and keep it off. While many of these things have helped, nothing has worked 100% so far. I actually made a list of everything I’ve tried here (please read that list before attempting to give me any advice or asking me, “Caleb, have you tried… ?”).

I mentioned last year that I was going to attempt the Carb Nite diet one more time (which was the most effective thing for me so far), and if it didn’t work, I would instead shift my focus away from dietsupplements, and exercise techniques and focus instead 100% on my psychology.

The second Carb Nite plan didn’t work, so I did exactly that. In January of this year, I completely stopped looking for different techniques about what and when to eat or how and when to exercise, since those clearly weren’t the problem. I tried everything on this massive list here and nothing worked. The problem wasn’t what I was doing because I was doing everything correctly. Instead, the problem was how I was thinking.

The problem was psychology more than it was action. I have been spending the last seven years of my life focusing on action, when in fact action wasn’t really my core problem. My problem has been my mind all along.

So I scoured the internet looking for some kind of information or program that focused on the psychology of losing weight rather than a list of things to do or not do.

I found a few systems like this, and I picked the one that looked the most promising. It’s called Noom. It’s both an app and a coaching program. For a small monthly fee, an app goes on your phone that you use several times per day. You do all the usual crap, such as tracking calories (which I did before and it wasn’t effective), tracking your exercise (I always exercise several times a week, doesn’t help), logging your daily weight (I do that already), and so on.

In addition, every day you get new lessons on how to re-train your mind on how to think about food. Instead of focusing on carbs, intermittent fasting, and specific training techniques (though it does address all of those things), it instead focuses on internal, psychological aspects such as:

  • Triggers
  • Thought distortions
  • Being aware of satiety levels
  • Mindfulness
  • Being aware of different types of hunger
  • Controlling mental, environmental, emotional, social, and hormonal factors
  • Mentally reinforcing victories instead of failures
  • Being aware of what they call “the elephant” (your irrational hungry side) and “the rider” (the rational side who wants long-term happiness)

And so on. There’s a hell of a lot more than just that, but those are a few off the top of my head.

In addition to all of this, you work with two different coaches. One coach you communicate with about once a week (or as needed) and they will actually see everything you log for your meals, exercise, weight, and so on. You work with this person to establish weekly goals, remain accountable, and answer questions. You also get a second coach who manages a small and closed forum with you and a small group of other Noom participants.

Noom is very different than any other program I’ve tried. For example, Noom says you should eat literally anything you want, whenever you want, as long as it fits into your caloric allotment. No low carb, no cheat days, none of that stuff. Just eat doughnuts and chocolate and ice cream whenever you want, even if you want to do it every day. Of course, they recommend to not make this a large percentage of your daily diet, but they won’t stop you if you choose to do it as long as you’re staying in a caloric deficit.

The Noom folks tell us that if you constantly say, “I shouldn’t eat X because X is bad! I can only eat X on a cheat day!” – which is exactly what I’ve been doing for seven years – then that alone contributes to making weight loss harder to achieve and maintain. If instead you re-frame this (which I have) to “I can eat literally whatever I want, whenever I want, in moderation,” your odds of losing weight and keeping it off go way up.

Again, that’s just an example of the changes I’ve made. There are many others.

The result? Starting in January of this year, I lost 30 pounds in 2.5 months.

Now, that’s nothing amazing. I’ve lost 30 pounds before – several times, in fact. I still need to lose more weight.

BUT! Here are the big, key differences:

  1. Since March, I have kept all of this weight off and not gained back any actual body weight. Now THAT is something brand new that I have never experienced before.

As far as I remember, I have never gone five months after losing weight without gaining back at least 10 or 15 pounds (and sometimes much more). I haven’t lost any more weight in the last five months, which is mildly irritating, but I haven’t gained any back, which is a huge victory for me.

have gained back a few pounds here and there, a few times, in scale weight, but that’s water, salt, glycogen, and other stuff, not body fat. When this happens, that weight just sloughs off in a few days.

  1. I have not gained any weight while on long international trips. On many trips I have actually continued to lose weight. Again, this has literally NEVER happened to me before. I ALWAYS gain weight when I go on international trips.

Even when I spent an entire week in Hong Kong earlier this year (with the most amazing food on the planet), I actually lost weight while I was there. When I spent three weeks recently in Panama and Paraguay, I maintained my weight during the entire trip.

I’m still amazed this is happening. It’s never happened before.

  1. I used to binge-cheat every week. Sometimes more. In the last five months I’ve only done it twice. Again, this is a massive, tectonic behavioral shift for me. I’ve had the “cheat day” system wired into me over the last few years, and when I had my cheat days in the past, I would binge hardcore. I’d easily eat 4,000 to 6,000 calories a day. It would then take the next four days to lose the scale weight from that binge before my diet could continue.

Today, when I “cheat,” which only happens once every 10 days or so, I will eat perhaps 500-700 calories over my caloric allotment. Since you need to eat 3500 calories to gain one pound, going 500-700 over isn’t going to be a problem at all.

So while I still have more weight to lose, I have successfully re-wired my psychology to not gain back any weight I’ve lost. Noom is fucking fantastic, so I can now officially recommend it for everyone. (I make no money from recommending it.) It may not be for everyone, since I know a lot of people who have lost weight who didn’t have the psychological problems with food that I did, but if you think that’s you, click here and check it out.

In the next installment I will discuss the exercise angle.

26 Comments on “Losing Weight – Part 1

  1. Congrats on the progress with your weight loss and finding a system that works for you, Caleb. Look forward to the next installment in this series.

    What do you need cheat days for? Genuine question. I’ve never done a weight loss program before.

    It’s mostly two-fold:

    The psychological component of getting to take a break from the work of dieting. It’s akin to when you take a short vacation from your job every few months. Just gives your mind a chance to relax and prepare for the next leg of the diet.

    There are also some physiological benefits that can be had. Certain hormones that are suppressed during the diet are given a kick start so that it may temporarily get your body back to thinking that it’s operating at normal functionality. (By the way, those hormones are suppressed because your body is trying to keep you alive since it “thinks” you’re in a famine scenario).

  2. What are the 15 or so key areas for blood panel checking?

    Too complicated to answer in a quick comment but the 4 most important for men’s energy levels are testosterone, estrogen, thyroid, and vitamin D.

    What do you need cheat days for?

    Only some people “need” them. The answer (for those people) is being able to not feel deprived and “controlling” your desire for shitty food. If you know you can eat whatever you want on Saturday, you’re more likely to stick to your nutrition plan until then.

  3. Sorry to read your struggle with this has been so hard. Good on you for not giving up.
    I checked your list and didn’t see anything on appetite suppressants.
    Natural ones such as acacia fiber and saffron extract work quite well for me and I’ve been using them to great effect every time I fall off the wagon into carbohydrate addiction and want to quickly right myself.
    Certainly they are no magic; the psychology side of it is super important and I’ve found myself binging on chocolate after having taken my appetite suppressants, with a full-feeling stomach, just because I wanted the feeling of eating the damn chocolate.
    But, if you’ve got the rest of it dialed in they can certainly help you maintain the right mindset by keeping your body from sending unwelcome signals to your brain.

  4. I checked your list and didn’t see anything on appetite suppressants.

    I have tried about five different appetite suppressants over the years (including some recommended by guys like Tim Ferriss) and none of them helped. (I forget the names of all of them but I remember one of them started with a K.)

    I’ve found myself binging on chocolate after having taken my appetite suppressants, with a full-feeling stomach, just because I wanted the feeling of eating the damn chocolate.

    Haha. Then they didn’t help, did they? Thus my point.

  5. Good job caleb… I’ve kept 35 pounds off with keto and now carnivore for about two years now. I have some quick feedback if I cheat… besides fat gain, my digestion gets much worse and my arthritis flares up… so that is good motivation for me to keep my good habits. Also, I find it really helpful to continuously listen to health podcasts to keep myself conditioned and motivated. Good luck on keeping it off!

  6. I heavily used psychology to gain weight and build muscle. Read pages from “Education of a Bodybuilder” daily. Watched clips from “Pumping Iron” or bodybuilding clips daily. Kept a picture of my ideal body where I see it often. I kept repeating the next weight number I want to see on the scale throughout the day. I saw eating as similar to being on gym. I exercised mental control and toughness while eating imagining I’m on the gym. Kept taking photographs every time I improved even little.
    I kept visualizing myself as stepping into the ideal body and imagining I’m already that way.

    Almost 70% of my mental energy throughout the day was focused on my ideal body and weight. I had cut bank on women, business and went single minded on body for 18 months. I could do 2 pounds per month which was what I was aiming at. In 2 years that was about 40 lbs and mostly muscle.
    I have kept my body goal in maintenance ever since and hit my women goals in next 18 months.
    Now both of them are on maintainence and my mind is focused intensely on business success.

  7. That’s truely awesome! Congrats and keep going! It’s really extremely hard to do such a tremendous change on the very one of your worst habits.

    I would binge hardcore. I’d easily eat 4,000 to 6,000 calories a day.

    Holy shit! How is that even possible? What did you swallow on a 6000kcal day, pure oil? That is not a cheat day, that is unleashed self destructive glutony mayhem. That’s severe addiction. And you overcame that! Awesome!

    Today, when I “cheat,” which only happens once every 10 days or so, I will eat perhaps 500-700 calories over my caloric allotment.

    This, yes, is a cheat day.

    you should eat literally anything you want, whenever you want, as long as it fits into your caloric allotment.

    Yup, the only thing that matters for loosing weight is to eat a little energy deficit over a sustained and long period of time. Moderation is the key.

    Are you able to point out why you haven’t continued to loose weight? I know it’s great that you haven’t gaimed weight and I am not trying to diminish this huge success, my question is to understand further the Noom processs. I mean did you continue the exact same way the program or you have been less careful? Does your calories allotment diminish with time (new calculation based on your new weight) or is it supposed to be computed once for all?

  8. Almost 70% of my mental energy throughout the day was focused on my ideal body and weight. I had cut bank on women, business and went single minded on body for 18 months. I could do 2 pounds per month which was what I was aiming at. In 2 years that was about 40 lbs and mostly muscle.

    Awesome.

    Holy shit! How is that even possible?

    Very easy in the USA. Go out to eat at a restaurant at lunch and order an appetizer, a big meal, and dessert, clean your plate and eat it all, do that again in the evening, then eat a bunch of calorie-dense carbs at night before you go to bed. You can easily hit 4-6K doing that.

    I think you vastly underestimate how many calories bad food is. Just a single slice of cheesecake is 1300 cals.

    Are you able to point out why you haven’t continued to loose weight?

    Mental habits and programming regarding food. I’ll be more specific in future installments. It’s all mental.

    I mean did you continue the exact same way the program or you have been less careful?

    I have been less careful.

    Does your calories allotment diminish with time (new calculation based on your new weight)

    Yes, but only slightly.

  9. Have you looked into the carnivore diet?

    Look up “success stories”. I myself have lost a lot of fat from this diet, gained muscle and mental clarity and I have 0 digestion problems left.

    It’s so easy too. It’s almost too good to be true.

  10. Caleb,

    I’m no weight loss expert; just an expert with my own weight loss journey.

    Started at 470 lbs. in October of 2015. I’ve lost 170 lbs. Fat. Was 66% body fat. Now 34%.
    Was size 60 waist. Now 48.

    I did the above without: drugs, surgery, or any expensive specialized coaching, or any foods I couldn’t buy from my local supermarket. During the same time frame I also:

    1. Divorced my wife of 26 years
    2. Started and ended a 2 year long-distance relationship
    3. Was unemployed when I began
    4. Suffered through what I now know was mild depression
    5. Totally remade my outlook on life: food, my mission, my relationship to my
    family, friends, and women…and myself.

    A massive struggle, and I am doing it on my own, no friends, no sponsor, no one. People who have known me my whole life cannot understand how this turnabout happened. Many of them wrote me off.

    You asked for help. Here are the major commitments I made:
    1. Made the commitment to NEVER eat anything from certain categories of food:
    *beverages: water, tea, coffee are all I drink
    * Fast food, or any junk food. Never. Not even a cheat day.
    * any traditional food I enjoyed: pie for thanksgiving, moms cooking, etc.
    * any over processed food. The principle is to eat raw and clean
    2. No added sugar-NEVER eat anything with added sugar.
    3. NEVER bring into my home any prohibited item.
    4. NEVER plan exceptions to my nutrition plan

    The foundational principle I adhere to is this: Food is for fuel.

    Thought process before I eat:
    1. Is this food for fuel or am I anticipating the flavor/texture/context.
    2. Am I really hungry? Check how long it has been since I last ate.
    3. What physical need is this food energy going to fulfill in the next 2-3 hours?
    4. Is this food going to contribute to my long-term fat loss?

    There is a ton to say about weight loss. Here are a few specific things I do. Hope you find something new in here that will spark your creative impulse.

    * track every thing I eat or drink, record it in an app. I use Cronometer
    * intermittent fasting
    * food prep. One day per week, I make everything for the week.
    * stop thinking of the verboten food as “food”. It isn’t. Candy, junk food, restaurant food, any processed food, sugar…none of it is necessary, so I do not think of them as food anymore. Kind of like cleaning out OBW.
    * stopped watching TV and ceased consuming mass media.
    * made everything I did into a permanent lifestyle change, not a temporary diet.
    * lift weights, workout. Every day the first 3 months, helped with diet.

    Anyway, I started with a trainer at my gym because at 470 pounds I was afraid I would hurt myself, and I didn’t know how to exercise. The trainer learned with me, I was his largest client ever. The food education I learned on my own from the internet.
    For 3 months I stuck to my no junk/no sugar/no processed plan and it worked. After that, bland raw vegetables did not taste so bad, and now an apple is sweet to me. I averaged 10 lbs lost per month the first year, slowed down after that. I still have 80 lbs to go.

    Hope this helps. Nothing is more powerful than self-control.

  11. Is there something like Noom anyone would recommend for overcoming a very deeply rooted mental block about weigh training and exercising in general?

    @Samim

    I heavily used psychology to gain weight and build muscle. Read pages from “Education of a Bodybuilder” daily. Watched clips from “Pumping Iron” or bodybuilding clips daily. Kept a picture of my ideal body where I see it often. I kept repeating the next weight number I want to see on the scale throughout the day. I saw eating as similar to being on gym. I exercised mental control and toughness while eating imagining I’m on the gym.

    That’s awesome man! On my side I can pretty much do anything I decide to with food: gain weight or loose weight. So the food part is not a difficulty. But it’s the weigh training: I hate it and I have never been consistent more than 3 months in a row. Did you also struggle psychologically with motivation for the gym, or it was purely the food habit mental programing that you are talking about here?

  12. Hi Caleb.

    You said to focus on psychology.

    So here it is: for myself, for goals, I notice that I can ratchet the internal pressure up or down for whatever the goal is.
    I further notice, like your example of the airplane needing 100% for take-off, that if I am less than 100% that I get very irritated and anxious, but don’t get it done.

    So when I get more and more self-imposed pressure, that gets me closer to take-off energy, I get more and more angry/irritable/bothered and then when I hit take-off speed, and MOVE then I can drop the pressure to a more comfortable level as I adjust to the daily habits.

    These are my daily habits. I don’t care if you do them or not, since I am listing them purely for constructive analysis.

    I eat a bunch of vitamins, amino acids, and minerals everyday. Mostly. The list is B complex, C, D, E, Lysine, arginine, theanine, HPT-5,l-tyrosine, cal-mag-zinc,potasium-gluconate,l-glutamin, DHEA, complete amino, and saw palmetto. Do they all work? I have no idea. I’m the healthiest person I know or can see, so I will err on the side of maybe.

    I get about 4 1/2 to 5 hours of sleep each night. Done this for years. It isn’t good. Don’t recommend it. To stay awake, I drink multiple cups of coffee, and 3 or 4 starbucks Doubleshots at work each day, but not on the weekends.

    I eat 2 or 3 (20 gram protein) cliff protein bars from 6am to 1pm. Then I eat one apple driving home, and eat a slice of pizza and 700 calorie ice cream mocha from 31 flavor baskin robbins about 4 times a week. Sometimes I eat dinner. Sometimes I don’t. I don’t cook, so dinner is sausage/egg/cheese sandwich, or beef taco, or beef bowl, at nearest starbucks or taco shop.

    In other words my diet is shit.

    I currently do not exercise (although I have in the past).

    I weigh 195 pounds. Six foot four. 50 years old. Medium build. (My sister has bigger biceps than I do.) I am maintaining my weight without exercise, and a shitty diet.

    My point being, I agree with you, diet and exercise are not going to overcome the psychology aspect.

    So psychologically,

    I think you are NOT at 100% internal pressure yet. You are holding back. For reasons that obviously seem Very good to you. I would hazard a guess that you are afraid of something at a (likely) sub-conscious level, since most people have fears at the sub-conscious level, and you’ll know exactly what it is when you go looking for it, because it will hurt when you find it. David Snyder has some videos and knowledge you may care to take a quick look at to see if it is anything you want to persue.

    Since you asked, I think you need to increase your internal pressure to the point where you change your subconscious resolve. Maybe that sounds stupid, but I would further guess that you simply ask yourself what benefit your current weight/BMI holds for you and listen for the answer.
    I find, after years of practice, that I ask myself questions (about myself) and if I word it precisesly, my mind will answer precisely. (There is a background here if you want more.)

    So my suggestion is to increase your internal pressure until everything else of lesser importance falls away, and it becomes your new priority – at which point it won’t matter what you eat or drink or exercise, because your internal subconscious will always auto-correct, just as it is doing NOW to keep you away from your goal weight.

    This is intended to help, as I have been greatly helped by you, and remain indebted to you in the best way.

    As my business becomes visible and more successful, you should know that you helped make it possible.
    A different John C.

  13. Not trying to be a jerk, but it sounds like a bit of denial. Or perhaps celebrating a touchdown on the 5 yard line. Both of which are psychological. You kept the weight off longer than ever before — great job. But it has been a short time period. I have kept weight off for 10 years, then gained it all back.

    Losing lots of weight is easy, because all it takes is a few months of determination. But keeping it off is immensely hard, because we have to keep up that determination for a lifetime. What works for me is low carb/keto. We are animals with a built in carb addiction. Carbs set up a damaging hormone cycle. We have to treat it like alcoholics do, meaning don’t ever fall off the wagon again.

    In a way, losing weight quickly hurts our long term success. It seems easy. So we get complacent, knowing we can just slip back into losing mode any time we feel like it. Thus the cheating begins, and once started it can spin out of control.

    PS – I’m in the same boat. Lost about 30 pounds. But it’s not enough and I too have lost that laser focus.

  14. Caleb,
    Congratulation with yor success.
    Not tottaly related with body weight loss, but for sure with overall health and time management. Have you consider to hire personal cheef and live-in personal trainer? As you travel a lot I am not sure if this will work for you, anyway worth to consider. More details in this clip starting in 6:20 up to 17:15: https://youtu.be/H5c41aWpQ14

  15. Have you looked into the carnivore diet?

    Yes, greatly. In my opinion that would be a great temporary diet as a cleanse or temporary weight loss blast of some kind, but it would never be something I would do for the rest of my life, and that’s more of what I’m looking for. There are also no longitudinal studies that I know regarding people who have done the carnivore diet consistently for 10+ or 20+ years, and that’s a problem.

    Is there something like Noom anyone would recommend for overcoming a very deeply rooted mental block about weigh training and exercising in general?

    Not that I know of. Noom is about food, which is my problem. I love exercising and always have.

    I think you are NOT at 100% internal pressure yet. You are holding back. For reasons that obviously seem Very good to you. I would hazard a guess that you are afraid of something at a (likely) sub-conscious level, since most people have fears at the sub-conscious level

    Yes, that’s likely. I have a few guesses on what that may be but I really don’t know for sure, at least not yet.

    Since you asked, I think you need to increase your internal pressure to the point where you change your subconscious resolve. Maybe that sounds stupid, but I would further guess that you simply ask yourself what benefit your current weight/BMI holds for you and listen for the answer.

    I’ve already done this and I already know the answer: the freedom to eat whatever the fuck I want whenever I want and not feel restricted (i.e. less free) in any way whatsoever.

    The answer to that, or at least one answer to that, is to change what I want to eat. Working on it.

    Not trying to be a jerk, but it sounds like a bit of denial. Or perhaps celebrating a touchdown on the 5 yard line.

    You misread me. I am not celebrating anything whatsoever in this regard and I am extremely upset and disappointed at myself that this is still a problem in my life at age 47.

    I will celebrate on December 28th if I hit this goal. Will that mean I’m all done? Oh no. Then the real work begins: keeping it the weight off for the rest of my life. Which yes, will be very hard.

  16. Caleb, in your opinion, what is the optimal body fat range an older man (per your definition) should strive to stay in long-term to be both healthy and attractive? No doubt, lower is better in many regards, but I have to imagine there’s a sweet spot where the body is healthy, you look attractive, and it’s long-term sustainable.

    I’m sure you’ve researched the crap out of all this stuff, so I’m curious as to what you think and what you, yourself, are working towards (if you’re inclined to reveal that).

  17. Caleb – Congrats on losing and keeping off the weight. Glad to see you are focusing on mindfulness; I think that is key. This book comes to mind, Savor by Thich Nhat Hanh.
    He’s a Buddhist monk and it focuses on mindful eating practices. I think we all can learn something from it, whether losing weight or not.

  18. Haha. Then they didn’t help, did they? Thus my point.

    No, they do help, but they obviously don’t do all the work for me, and one can’t expect them to. That was my point.

  19. Caleb, in your opinion, what is the optimal body fat range an older man (per your definition) should strive to stay in long-term to be both healthy and attractive?

    In my purely layman’s opinion, a man over 40 should be within 11%-17% body fat or so.

  20. Yes, greatly. In my opinion that would be a great temporary diet as a cleanse or temporary weight loss blast of some kind, but it would never be something I would do for the rest of my life, and that’s more of what I’m looking for. There are also no longitudinal studies that I know regarding people who have done the carnivore diet consistently for 10+ or 20+ years, and that’s a problem.

    Our ancestors and pretty much every human that ever existed got optimal nutrition from animal sources. Our modern diets are deficient and so we overeat and binge. Yes the science isn’t there yet, correct. However look into all indigenous groups. Even if you added more meat to your diet you would feel satiated more and eat less “bad” foods.

    Here is a link to the bioavailability of animal foods vs plant foods. It’s an interesting read! here: https://old.reddit.com/r/zerocarb/wiki/vitamins

    Good luck with the weight loss!

  21. Congratulations
    I think this is a great achevement. Not from the numbers, but because you just broke from a toxic perspective. I feel everlasting restrictive diet lifestyle is a very unhealthy way to live In the long run. Mentaly it is terrible, even if it is a very “healty” diet
    I would recommend you check the no”s” diet. it is extremely similar to noom as you describe it. It isnt perfect, i changed some things. They limit things with a high quantity of sugar by just eating it on weekends and special ocasions. I dont. I chose to eat it everyday In smaller portions and on larger portions ones a week or twice.
    Anyway. The no”s” site is funny, a good read and free. Awesome for maintenence. Specialy if you make your own versión as i did.
    Good luck with the rest of your journey.

  22. 11-17% is actually leaner than most people picture it to be. There are guys who are in great shape with a solid six-pack who, when they take a serious bf% measurement, realize with needless ‘horror’ that they’re at 17% (no, not an exception to the rule, this is common).
    If you can be 11% at 45-50 then more power to you, but personally, if in my forties I just have a flat stomach, obvious muscular development and score well on fitness tests, I won’t give a shit if the shiny gagdets say 13% or 19%.
    Here are some realistic bf% pics. The lower half is kinda BS but the upper half is spot on. THIS is what 10-14, 15-19 and 20-24% actually look like in most cases.
    https://www.ketogains.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/BF-Male.jpg

  23. I’ve never tried this but will try this weekend. Heard about it via friends.

    You can ‘wager money’ for your weight loss goals. One site is DietBet.

    I’ve never used it but seems like their most common thing is putting up $40-$100 to lose 4% of your weight in 4 weeks.

    A bit aggressive (they have 10% in 6 month challenge which is slower) – but yeah.

    I think I’m going to try it with $100. That’s not much but it’ll be enough for me to not want to lose it.

    Food for thought.

    You might have to compete in 4 $100 games to care but it’s an idea. Sounds like you won’t really ‘make’ much money if you win — peanuts — it’s more of not losing, and being competitive.

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